The Joker

[impy13]

The Alamo has throw together quite an event for the first day of release:

BATMAN BEGINS raised the bar for comic book movies, and from everything we’ve seen so far, THE DARK KNIGHT is poised to grab that bar, do a chin up, pull itself on top of the bar, swing around it like a gymnast, launch fifty feet into the air, land on a rafter looking down at the bar, then destroy that old bar with a rocket launcher. In other words, we can not wait for July 18, when this film will finally be released. And so to make sure we are fully ready and celebrating this moment properly, we’re putting together an opening night celebration like nothing else on the planet. As in our Ultimate Indiana Jones Adventure, we’ll be renting a big bus and planning another grown ups field trip, this time taking the lucky ticket holders down south to Bracken Cave, the cave with the largest Mexican freetail bat population on the planet. You think it’s fun to sit under the Congress Bridge and watch the bats exodus? Multiply that by a thousand. Then, safely away from the bats, we'll have an extravagant feast that will make you feel like millionaire playboy Bruce Wayne. Then it's back to the city for another adventure or two (if anyone knows where we can find a functioning grappling hook that will shoot out of a gun and let us climb the Frost Bank Tower, please let us know), before finally returning to the South Lamar theater to watch THE DARK KNIGHT. Seriously, this will be the kind of all-inclusive evening that will virtually guarantee that when you go to sleep that night you’ll get to have one of those bad ass dreams where you’re actually Batman. The rest of the world will be watching THE DARK KNIGHT, but we’ll be living it.

I'm really tempted to participate in that one.

[Lancemc]

My criticisms of Batman Begins aren't particularly major. Just a few things that combined to a satisfactory and enjoyable, but not quite exceptional experience. Action is the big one. None of the scenes were especially well filmed and most were pretty poorly edited. They lacked energy and rhythm. But they were still passable. I really liked the first part of the film, prelude to the creation of Batman, with the Ninjas and all that. Good stuff. However, by the time the film started to feel like Batman, it wasn't too compelling. I personally thought Scarecrow was a terrible movie villain, and overall the film lacked a cohesive conflict, I had trouble identifying with the trajectory of the film for much or its duration. I guess it seemed a bit aimless. And by the time Ra's Al Ghul came back into the fray (the final 20 minutes are probably my favorite in the film, and the very end really was excellent), it's just a bit too little a bit too late.

So ultimately the two biggest nagging issues are the generally uneven, meandering pace of the plot, and the surprisingly incompetent action scenes in comparison to the quality of the rest of the film.

I still really like it though as a saving throw for the Batman franchise. 7/10

[Slapnutz]

Originally Posted by lazarus What was your criticism of BB? It didn't have the most original or mind-blowing action scenes, but it had an epic quality and brought a lot of dignity back to the character. Plus, this exchange at the end of the film, where Gordon says: "I never got a chance to thank you." and Batman responds "...and you'll never have to." I got chills at how well this nailed the character. And the Joker card? Just a note-perfect ending.

Personally, I really enjoyed Begins - thanks to the major action sequence at Ra's al Ghul's mountaintop temple (Bruce doing a belly slide to save 'Ducard' always puts a smile on my face), a swarm of CGI bats smashing through windows, the fear toxin scenes, the rooftop jumping Tumbler, the James Bond-esque interpretation of the microwave emitter, the League of Shadows mythology, the gravity defying execution of the cape-cum-glider (nice nod to Returns) and the entire Michael Bay on LSD third act.

Could have done without the corny, mood shattering one-liners and endless exposition, though. I also didn't appreciate that Bruce is essentially a non-entity, with every opinion and insight coming from those around him. The entire origin he's just led by the arm, spending time on the most basic issues and passing it off as deep character analysis. Bruce is always playing catchup to those around him, relies far too much on others, and seems to have a pretty average intellect.

[LemonMacPhisto]

Originally Posted by Lancemc My criticisms of Batman Begins aren't particularly major. Just a few things that combined to a satisfactory and enjoyable, but not quite exceptional experience. Action is the big one. None of the scenes were especially well filmed and most were pretty poorly edited. They lacked energy and rhythm. But they were still passable. I really liked the first part of the film, prelude to the creation of Batman, with the Ninjas and all that. Good stuff. However, by the time the film started to feel like Batman, it wasn't too compelling. I personally thought Scarecrow was a terrible movie villain, and overall the film lacked a cohesive conflict, I had trouble identifying with the trajectory of the film for much or its duration. I guess it seemed a bit aimless. And by the time Ra's Al Ghul came back into the fray (the final 20 minutes are probably my favorite in the film, and the very end really was excellent), it's just a bit too little a bit too late. So ultimately the two biggest nagging issues are the generally uneven, meandering pace of the plot, and the surprisingly incompetent action scenes in comparison to the quality of the rest of the film. I still really like it though as a saving throw for the Batman franchise. 7/10

I can what you're saying about the action sequences. Bryan Singer's X-Men suffered from the same problem, but turned it around by the 2nd film in the series. Villain-wise, I thought it was a good mix of everything. For once, I was glad the film focused on Bruce Wayne / Batman IN a Batman film. Ra's was the main villain, played exceptionally well by Liam Neeson, then Cillian Murphy's Scarecrow fit well into everything, along with Tom Wilkinson's Falcone and his mob. I'm gonna be biased, since Batman's my favorite superhero, I saw it on my birthday in '05 and it blew my mind. It's the only superhero film who's origin story is engaging and satisfying enough to last almost the whole film. Replacing Katie Holmes with Maggie Gyllenhaal is one of the best upgrades that movie could've made, cast-wise, too.

Originally Posted by lazarus What was your criticism of BB? It didn't have the most original or mind-blowing action scenes, but it had an epic quality and brought a lot of dignity back to the character. Plus, this exchange at the end of the film, where Gordon says: "I never got a chance to thank you." and Batman responds "...and you'll never have to." I got chills at how well this nailed the character. And the Joker card? Just a note-perfect ending.

Exactly.

[Lancemc]

Batman is my favorite superhero as well. The Animated Series pwned my childhood, but I've been waiting for an amazing Batman movie since I was old enough to pronounce his name. And Sadly Batman Begins didn't quite suffice, as much of an improvement it was over the Schumacher films.

From where I'm sitting Batman still hasn't seen a film incarnation on the level of Superman's first film outing, the X-Men's second, or anything close to Spiderman 2.

[LemonMacPhisto]

I'd put Burton's first Batman film and Begins up there with those films, along with Superman II, but that's just me.

The well's pretty dry on great superhero films, that's for sure.

[Lancemc]

After hearing everyone rave about The Donner cut of Superman 2 for years, I was pretty surprised to see just how horrifically cheesy, uneven, and unimaginative the whole thing still was.

[Lancemc]

And for the record, while there's still time, I'm going to make sure I throw out my support once more for Hellboy II, my long-time underdog pick for this summer's crop of action films. We'll know soon enough if my faith is misplaced.

[GirlsAloudFan]

Batman Forever opened in the United States on June 15, 1995.

I will always remember that date for some reason. It's such a clean and sharp date...hard to forget. I was 9 years old. I had just recently seen Tim Burton's two Batman movies and they were astonishing to my young eyes. I had Batman fever! It was all I thought about that summer. I watched the old Adam West Batman tapes that my brother owned. I bought a couple comics (something I never do)...I was momentarily obsessed. And here was coming a brand-new Batman movie!

And it was starring Jim Carrey as the Riddler??? Carrey was one of my favorite actors at the time following his string of movies - Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber...all three of which my 9 year old self loved to death (and still do)

So my entire family went to the movies that night...June 15, 1995. I have very vivid memories of that night. I remember being just so damned excited. I remember the feel of the gravel beneath my shoes as I ran across the paved parking lot to the doors of the Cineplex.

And the movie did not disappoint. It was so long ago, and I've seen Batman Forever so many times, that I don't recall exactly what my thoughts were after that first screening on June 15th. I do remember that I loved it. I preordered a VHS copy of the movie from my local Blockbuster so that I would get it the day it came out on video. And I loved it more and more everytime I watched it.

i LOVED Batman Forever. (I won't even discuss the next one starring Arnie and Clooney)

So when Batman Begins came out I, for some reason, rebelled against it. I don't know why. Immaturity? A sense of entitlement? I don't know. But, for whatever reason, when I went and saw Batman Begins in that very same theater that I watched Batman Forever in all those years ago...I walked out after the first 10 minutes. I fucking hated it. I was bored to tears. This was NOT my Batman. I walked out and vowed I would never even give it a second chance.

I've seen it since...and I like it OK. But now that Heath has donned the purple suit...I'm excited for The Dark Knight.

To cut a long story a little bit shorter...I don't really like Batman Begins very much. But I can't wait to see what Heath does here. Hopefully he can bring back those feelings I felt as a 9 year old kid on June 15th, 1995.

[LemonMacPhisto]

Ugh. I've seen the same Hellboy trailer before 3 of the 4 movies I've seen this summer. I liked the first one and of course love Del Toro's visual sense, but this just doesn't excite me, especially for a summer film.

I think it would've been better placed as a big Spring film, you know? It's sandwiched between Hancock, which will be huge, regardless of its quality, and The Dark Knight. It may just get lost in the shuffle.

[LemonMacPhisto]

Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan Batman Forever opened in the United States on June 15, 1995. I will always remember that date for some reason. It's such a clean and sharp date...hard to forget. I was 9 years old. I had just recently seen Tim Burton's two Batman movies and they were astonishing to my young eyes. I had Batman fever! It was all I thought about that summer. I watched the old Adam West Batman tapes that my brother owned. I bought a couple comics (something I never do)...I was momentarily obsessed. And here was coming a brand-new Batman movie! And it was starring Jim Carrey as the Riddler??? Carrey was one of my favorite actors at the time following his string of movies - Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber...all three of which my 9 year old self loved to death (and still do) So my entire family went to the movies that night...June 15, 1995. I have very vivid memories of that night. I remember being just so damned excited. I remember the feel of the gravel beneath my shoes as I ran across the paved parking lot to the doors of the Cineplex. And the movie did not disappoint. It was so long ago, and I've seen Batman Forever so many times, that I don't recall exactly what my thoughts were after that first screening on June 15th. I do remember that I loved it. I preordered a VHS copy of the movie from my local Blockbuster so that I would get it the day it came out on video. And I loved it more and more everytime I watched it. i LOVED Batman Forever. (I won't even discuss the next one starring Arnie and Clooney) So when Batman Begins came out I, for some reason, rebelled against it. I don't know why. Immaturity? A sense of entitlement? I don't know. But, for whatever reason, when I went and saw Batman Begins in that very same theater that I watched Batman Forever in all those years ago...I walked out after the first 10 minutes. I fucking hated it. I was bored to tears. This was NOT my Batman. I walked out and vowed I would never even give it a second chance. I've seen it since...and I like it OK. But now that Heath has donned the purple suit...I'm excited for The Dark Knight. To cut a long story a little bit shorter...I don't really like Batman Begins very much. But I can't wait to see what Heath does here. Hopefully he can bring back those feelings I felt as a 9 year old kid on June 15th, 1995.

Forever was my first "real" Batman film, too... but I was 6 years old when I first saw it. Going back to it now, it fucking sucks. It may have been "our Batman," but it wasn't Batman at all. It's more in line with the '60s Batman than anything else, which I do love, but should stay in the '60s, not show up in "my" Batman, you know? Back then, Nicole Kidman was the first girl I've ever had a movie-crush on, Jim Carrey was hilarious, Val Kilmer was a badass Batman, Chris O'Donnell was awesome because he got to work with Batman, and Tommy Lee Jones' face scared the hell out of me. It's amazing how opinions change in 10 years. Begins was the first Batman that I had seen in theaters, but I had seen the other 4, plus the '60s one, ad nauseum on VHS. I'm not trying to shit on your childhood memories, it's awesome that you love that movie, I wish I feel the same.

The Begins Batman is the truest representation of the comic book character, in my opinion.

[Lancemc]

Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan Batman Forever opened in the United States on June 15, 1995. I will always remember that date for some reason. It's such a clean and sharp date...hard to forget. I was 9 years old. I had just recently seen Tim Burton's two Batman movies and they were astonishing to my young eyes. I had Batman fever! It was all I thought about that summer. I watched the old Adam West Batman tapes that my brother owned. I bought a couple comics (something I never do)...I was momentarily obsessed. And here was coming a brand-new Batman movie! And it was starring Jim Carrey as the Riddler??? Carrey was one of my favorite actors at the time following his string of movies - Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber...all three of which my 9 year old self loved to death (and still do) So my entire family went to the movies that night...June 15, 1995. I have very vivid memories of that night. I remember being just so damned excited. I remember the feel of the gravel beneath my shoes as I ran across the paved parking lot to the doors of the Cineplex. And the movie did not disappoint. It was so long ago, and I've seen Batman Forever so many times, that I don't recall exactly what my thoughts were after that first screening on June 15th. I do remember that I loved it. I preordered a VHS copy of the movie from my local Blockbuster so that I would get it the day it came out on video. And I loved it more and more everytime I watched it. i LOVED Batman Forever. (I won't even discuss the next one starring Arnie and Clooney) So when Batman Begins came out I, for some reason, rebelled against it. I don't know why. Immaturity? A sense of entitlement? I don't know. But, for whatever reason, when I went and saw Batman Begins in that very same theater that I watched Batman Forever in all those years ago...I walked out after the first 10 minutes. I fucking hated it. I was bored to tears. This was NOT my Batman. I walked out and vowed I would never even give it a second chance. I've seen it since...and I like it OK. But now that Heath has donned the purple suit...I'm excited for The Dark Knight. To cut a long story a little bit shorter...I don't really like Batman Begins very much. But I can't wait to see what Heath does here. Hopefully he can bring back those feelings I felt as a 9 year old kid on June 15th, 1995.

I like you.

Don't go anywhere.

As for Hellboy. It's almost certainly going to get lost under the weight of Hancock and The Dark Knight. But it will likely thrive in DVD and Blu-ray sales much like the first film did, but there's no way I'm missing this one in theaters.

[u2popmofo]

Glad to see some love for Hellboy. I'm nearly as excited for it as I am for Batman. I can't wait to see what Del Toro does with an actual budget for the sequel. The great thing with those films is how much they rely and fall back to the source material, it's great that Del Toro and Mignola are so close.

Being older than some of the others who've shared their Batman Forever memories, my "I'll forgive them because of good memories" thoughts go to the Burton films. To not detract from other's personal feelings, let's just say my memories of Forever are less than positive (particularly after seeing some of it again recently). While I still like the Burton films, Christopher Nolan was the first director who actually seemed to make a Batman film for actual Batman fans based on the modern version (last 20 to 30 yrs) of the actual character and source material. Don't get me wrong, it certainly took some liberties to the origin, but it finally felt like Batman the vigilante detective, not Batman the '60's comedy (hello Schumacker and to some extent Burton).

I don't ever really see Wayne as being unintelligent in Begins personally. Regardless, it's the origin story. He's supposed to be new to it all. He gets beat up by hookers in Year One if I remember correctly. As for him not saying much, that IS Bruce Wayne/Batman.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted by Lancemc I like you. Don't go anywhere.

So you're saying you support this appreciation of Batman Forever?

Originally Posted by u2popmofo While I still like the Burton films, Christopher Nolan was the first director who actually seemed to make a Batman film for actual Batman fans based on the modern version (last 20 to 30 yrs) of the actual character and source material. Don't get me wrong, it certainly took some liberties to the origin, but it finally felt like Batman the vigilante detective, not Batman the '60's comedy (hello Schumacker and to some extent Burton).

This is the bottom line. I can't really champion the Burton films because I never felt like Burton understood the character. Burton is a gothy misfit loser and that's not really what Batman is. It's why Batman Returns worked more for me, because The Penguin and Catwoman are much closer to where Burton's pet obsessions lie.

Also, regarding the "poorly edited" action scenes of Batman Begins, I think there's a misconception there. They were edited deliberately to be confusing; unlike most fantasy/action films where the choreography is clearly displayed to the audience, the point here was to disorient the viewer much in the way that Batman uses misdirection and theatrics to disorient his opponents. If you notice, on that fight scene on the docks, you barely (if at all) see a full shot of Batman. He comes quickly out of the shadows, strikes, and slips immediately back into them, like a ghost (or ninja!).

I thought this approach was rather obvious. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work, but I think it's a bit unfair to accuse Nolan of being sloppy here.

[LemonMacPhisto]

Interesting editing here:

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